Vultisig Building for a THORChain, Rujira and Agentic Future | Podcast #216

What is going on, everybody? It is Saturday! We've got a podcast with our good friend, our ecosystem partner, Vultisig, right from the THORChain community they were born. I cannot wait you guys to talk about this. Let's get this intro going, guys. We're going to jump right into this. For those who haven't heard, THORChain is the world's leading Bitcoin DEX. You can swap 13 different blockchains across 41 different pools without using bridges or RAP tokens. Check it out at swap.thorchain.org. Swap.thorchain.org. Anyone in the world can use THORChain, you guys. There's no account open, no KYC is required, and privacy is a human right. THORChain has two tokens, RUNE and Tcy. The fees for swapping on THORChain are paid in RUNE, and that's where the yield comes from. The fees are deducted from swaps, so you do not need to own RUNE to trade on THORChain, you guys. The RUNE token is currently deflationary. It's 5% of fees are burned. 10% of protocol fees goes to TCY token holders. Remember to stake the TCY tokens in order to collect this yield. There are no block rewards on THORChain. The protocol fees are real money paid by real users. THORChain is more than just a DEX, you guys. It is a programmable layer 1 with the ability to create smart contracts and dApps. This app layer is being developed by RUJERA, and we will be talking about that momentarily, you guys. If you need help with THORChain in general, guys, please join the THORChain community Discord and Telegram group. Links for those are on THORChain.org. THORChain.org. And also, you guys, on THORChain.org, join the email list. It is the best way to stay updated with THORChain. And always remember, you guys, this podcast for information and educational purposes only and does not constitute financial, investment, or legal advice. The THORChain community does not endorse or condone illicit activity of any kind whatsoever. That's the introduction, you guys. Now, before we get started, there's something really fun with Mr. Powell's name here that happens every time in my brain where I see your name. So I'm going to bring something up here on the screen, and we're going to play a little something here. This is what my brain does every time I hear your name. Here we go. Screw it. Let's let them do it. No, it's a win-win for me. Because if you fuck up, Brennan, if you fuck up, I get to fire your ass. But if you pull it off, I look like a genius to the board. Okay? I get it. Look, Brennan, I'm not doing a fucking wine mixer. Okay? Are you saying pow? What are you saying? It's the biggest helicopter leasing event in the Western Hemisphere since 1997. Okay, that's what my brain does. Every time I see your name when we DM whatever, I have his screaming voice in my head. I'm a complete lunatic, you guys. I have something wrong with my brain. But that is what I swear to God. Every time I see your name, that's what happens in my brain, dude. I'm trapped. I'm trapped in the prism of my own psychosis. It's a bad thing, dude. Very, very bad. But FYI, how you doing, man? Maybe give us an introduction and go ahead. Yeah, thanks for the introduction. I think it was the best or funniest introduction ever made with my name. I never, like, to be honest, I forgot that movie since ages that, like, that my name more or less comes up there. But yeah, thanks for the introduction. I love the energy and super hyped to be here today. Yeah, for the guys or everyone who probably doesn't know me, I'm Pau. I'm a thought chain and a thought chat by heart since right before mainnet. And since, yeah, around about two years, starting with, yeah, in the Vultisic crew as a project manager. So that's why I'm mainly, yeah, the outward facing face or person when it comes to all Vultisic related things for community, customer support. Also, of course, everything product related. So I'm, I would say right behind our founders and co-founders, the main contact if anyone always has some issues, problems, requests or things about Vultisic. But yeah, that's mainly to my person, I would say. Like I said, I'm running Vultisic with a team. And I think that's the day to day to be talk all about Vultisic and 4Chain. Yeah, maybe quickly an introduction to what Vultisic is, if anyone in the 4Chain community doesn't know it yet. I hope everyone is aware of Vultisic by now in the 4Chain community at least. But for those who are maybe new or still didn't try to or get to join and test Vultisic, Vultisic is essentially a seedless multi-chain wallet born, like as I said, out of the 4Chain ecosystem. Because yeah, like myself and most of the Vultisic founders and devs are also from the 4Chain ecosystem since years. So that's why, like I said, we're 4Chain by heart and we're born out of 4Chain. But essentially, we are a completely cross-chain seedless wallet. First, we are supporting over 37 chains by now. And yeah, seedless because we are leveraging the MPC technology, what also 4Chain is utilizing. Because funnily, Vultisic was born out of 4Chain from JP as a founder. And what we did essentially is taken the whole TSS and MPC technology, what 4Chain already had and is working on, and more or less crushed it together with a wallet technology. So everyone using Vultisic is essentially technically running their own 4Chain ecosystem, but just for signing, right? So the cool thing is with this MPC technology, same as all the nodes on 4Chain, nobody holds or writes down a private key, right? Everyone just have their own Vult shares. And the cool thing is with this MPC technology, you as a user has or have already a multi-factor authentication baked into your wallet, right? Which is nice because if you think about it, most of the wallets these days are still one-factor authentication. You, I don't know, type in a password or just, yeah, one PIN or even just, you know, click a button and you sign a transaction. And, yeah, comparing that with your bank account, with your Google account or whatever, everything is too off these days because of good reasons. And especially in crypto managing thousands or millions, even dollars of funds, it's important to have such authentication. And the cool thing is with Vultisic, I think we finally reached a good point where you still have a good and easy wallet experience, but have the multi-factor authentication. Because, of course, there are multi-factor authentication where you need multiple devices or multiple private keys to sign a transaction. But that's super static, right? So, essentially, if you lose one key, it's hard to recover the funds or even migrate them or, you know, it's like a hassle. And most of them are even quite isolated to each chain. So, you can't, like, you need a multi-sig solution for Bitcoin, a multi-sig solution for Litecoin. And some chains don't even really support it. And with the MPC technology, as you guys know, with ThorChain, we can essentially support most of these chains. And, yeah, that's what we are leveraging, essentially. And, of course, yeah, we are trying to give the users the best experience in a cross-chain world because, of course, with a lot of tokens, a lot of chains and everything, it's quite hard to get a good wallet experience. So, we just try to make it as easy as simple with the wallet. But, yeah, I think that's mainly the closest and quickest introduction I can do. Yeah, if you have any questions for, like, maybe new people who may be joining or... Yeah, well, we actually do have a question from the audience that came. We do have some streaming issues, but they are still interacting with us in an indirect way. So, thank you guys very much for the engagement. I appreciate it. So, there is one question. This person would like to know, when will we have a proper referral fee for all swaps, not just on ThorChain? That's a great question. Yeah. That's always, I mean, a bit contradictory, I would say, with our whole infrastructure. I mean, because most of the wallets are, you know, in some kind of way centralized, right? They run through a specific backend or server, and there it's much easier to create these, I would say, gamifications or, yeah, referrals and centralized solutions. But we, with Multiseq, we try to be... First, of course, we are open source, right? So, you can just check our code on GitHub or commit or raise a PR if you want to. And we try to be as independent, private, and chain agnostic as possible. So, with our, yeah, let's say, referral system, we are leveraging the ThorChain Thor names specifically because, of course, we are always ThorChain biased. So, we always, yeah, try to be as ThorChain agnostic as possible. But given that we have other swap providers, which, of course, cover swap routes or chains, which are not yet supported. Hopefully, all of them will be one day in ThorChain, I hope at least. But for the moment, if there are some chains who are not supported by ThorChain, we need to use other swap providers, of course. And they have different affiliate sharing or maybe even no affiliate sharing. So, we can't really, at the moment, create a referral system where all chains are included. We are thinking about maybe creating a bit or going a bit more into the wallet, more centralized wallet space, so to say, where we have more infrastructure running on our end. But, yeah, until now, we really wanted to go in the direction of decentralization and, you know, not being reliant even on our infrastructure. So, that's why we just have it for ThorChain at the moment for the referrals. But, yeah, probably going into that a bit more later. But, yeah, we are trying to be a bit more user-friendly and a bit more, of course, gamified and having, like, these centralized infrastructure a bit more to have a better user experience later on. Okay, there we go. Thank you very much for that. This person is a really big Vultisig fan. So, they have more questions if you're ready here, pal. Yeah, of course. I think I know who it is. Yeah. That's what I always try to be, right? As close as possible to the community as I can while managing product and everything. So, I mainly, hopefully, know most of the real Vultisig advocates. And I'm super glad and grateful for these guys being there. So, yeah, happy to first tackle his questions and dive a bit deeper in things. Love it, man. Yeah. And, yeah, and again, I just, why this broadcasting just drives me a little zany right now is because I just wish this was more, you know, haptic feedback live. It doesn't matter. Okay, so the next question is, say somebody wants to trade Solana poop coins with a fast vault setup. What is the API used? Is it OpenOcean? No. At the moment, it's not OpenOcean. We already, like, thought about, of course, there's so many different swap providers you can integrate. And most of them these days are aggregators of aggregators or, you know, like some stuff of that. So, we always have the tendency to be as native as possible on any chain or any swap we support. So, that's why, of course, we're ThorChain first, where we, of course, support also Solana when it's back up. I think it's currently paused, but I hope soon it's back up again. And for Solana, let's say, quote unquote poop coins, we have currently the native Jupyter integration going, which we actually just integrated last week. And before that, we used Li-Fi. So, we have a few different swap aggregators and swap providers for different chains. Okay, perfect. And then a follow-up here is, they want to know, is there an MEV MEV portion to that? I mean, it really, I think on Jupyter, it's already should be supported or in there that MEV is covered quite well. But personally, I'm not 100% sure at the moment. But, of course, it depends really on each swap provider we integrate it. But we try, of course, to have the routes which have MEV protection, which have the best quotes and are fastest. We have, of course, we broadcast through RPCs who are also quite MEV resistant. But, yeah, that's, I think, should be answering quite the question. 100%. 100%. And then, okay, next question here. They've got, they're firing them off at me. They said, how do we know the trade will get routed to the pool with the highest liquidity so we don't trade into thin liquidity and lose our money? Or is the trade routed to multiple pools for maximum efficiency? I mean, like, again, that really depends on the swap provider use. But we, and on the VultiSig side, we have the logic that we always get the best quotes or, like, have all our integrated swap providers quoting the route the user wants to take. And then, of course, selecting the best one with, in terms of end output, so to say, and for the user. But that's also something I wanted to talk, like, just generally later. But we're currently in the works of really hardening and improving the user experience. So, if there are advanced users in the future, they can also select their swap routes of preference, for example. But, yeah, at the moment, we always route through the provider who gives the best quote. And always, of course, have a ThorChain bias when it comes to swapping. So, that's why even, like, I think 99 or 95% of our swap volume goes through ThorChain afterwards through Maya. And then the more, yeah, the other swap providers we have integrated. I love that, man. And, you know, that reminds me of something that Alex Alix from Maya Protocol said in the last Thursday. He says, you know, it's not all about economics. It's about the mission. He was talking specifically about redundancy. But for me, as a swap, because I use VolteSig as well. Full disclosure, everybody, I love VolteSig. And I use it to bond on RuneBond. I just, I love it. It's great. You know, I only want to use ThorChain or Maya Protocol. I don't mind paying slightly more if they're in competitive, because I believe in the ethos. And I'm really glad that you guys do that, because I totally believe in a free and sovereign world, right? I want to promote as much maximum decentralization as possible. That is my goal. So, I really, really like that. The last time we spoke, man, it's been a while. A lot of things have changed. So, I don't know. Maybe I'll kick it to you right now. Maybe you'd like to give us, like, an update. Like, I don't know if you remember exactly what we talked about last time. But, you know, what has VolteSig been doing since the last time we spoke? You know, what does VolteSig of today look like? Yeah, I mean, I actually need to recall properly when we talked last time. I think it was, was it even half a year ago or something? Something like that, yeah. Well, you know, back then, you know, you were talking about, you know, the ideation of things that are coming, you know, especially like with ThorChain. You guys were talking about preference, preferring ThorChain back then. That still is the case. We had Rujira. Ruggira is becoming more and more mature and is soon to get off the ground. So, maybe we'll start there. Like, what is your vision with VolteSig? Like, where do you want to place it strategically as things really get more mature, refined, and stable? Yeah. The new thing that we're building. I mean, yeah, true. But generally, you know, we are also quite close to the whole Ruggira team. And that's why I'm personally, you know, I'm, like I said, the whole VolteSig team is our ThorChats by heart. And therefore, you know, we always try to echo, I mean, the whole ethos of the whole ThorChain ecosystem is, you know, worthwhile. As you said, decentralization and sovereignty is something super important in the coming future, if you ask me. And therefore, we just try to place us in a world, especially in the ThorChain ecosystem, where we support all different, like, ThorChain features and, of course, Ruggira features quite natively in the app. Of course, you know, we have our VolteSig extension, where we, you know, you can essentially connect to all different apps you want to work with on, let's say, Ethereum, Binance Chain, Sui, Tau, whatever, right? Like, we have 37 chains. And most of them, like, we're still rolling that out step by step, but most of them have dApp support already with the extension. But what comes natively into the apps, we are quite selective. And therefore, you know, we always had the native support of ThorChain. When it comes, for example, as you said, right, bonding in our app is, I hope, now quite easy and an awesome experience. Having TCY staking, having Ruggira staking, and all of that is native in our apps. And we, of course, try to be as ThorChain-centric and support all the different features of ThorChain natively in the app. Something we're currently adding or, like, probably starting next week as we clear up some backlog is B-Rune finally to support it properly in the apps. And then also, as, like, one thing I wanted to, like, properly shout out since we spoke last time is we launched Station Wallet or relaunched it. I think probably some are aware or know what this wallet was before. But essentially, we acquired it and relaunched it in a fully authentic way. So, you know, it's quite, I would say, something to relearn again since we all are really used to using wallets in a specific way with the UI and how they are now, like, quite standardized, I would say, on all different ones. And as we are really sharing the vision of AI and, like, where AI is going, that especially, like, JP and myself, we're really seeing the future where apps and UIs are collapsing into just an agentic layer, right? And you can just prompt your agent, your Hermes, your OpenClaw or whatever comes in the future to create whatever, right? Interact with whatever. And you don't need to learn a UI anymore. So that's what we are already trying to get ahead of with Station because most of the, let's say, agentic wallets these days are SDKs or, you know, toolkits for agents to interact on chain or hold assets. But a really, let's say, complete cross-chain agentic wallet where you as the end user can just talk with a wallet is not really existent so far or up to my knowledge. And that's something that we created with Station. We're really, really early still. We, you know, we just launched and now really wanted to push on there. But essentially, you can go into Station and just tell them, tell the Station agent, stake my ETH or stake my, or bond my Rune or whatever. And given, you know, our close ties with ThorChain, with you guys and Rojira, we are also soon pushing to fully integrate the Rojira, yeah, let's say app layer. So especially on their recently launched CCL, like the concentrated liquidity feature, makes a great case for agentic usage, right? Because it's a bit more complicated, especially with managing the ranges, with just rebalancing your positions and all of that. So having an agent who fully understands, like this protocol, for example, the Rojira protocol, the CCL function is something we want to focus on the coming two, three weeks with Station to fully support the CCL. And then, of course, like all other tools, what Rojira is using and providing, so to say. So that's like, I think on the Station side, really what we were pushing on the last quarter. And of course, with WultiSig, a lot of that, since we talked, changed. Because what's also was quite funny is when 4Chain had the needed pause or like the pressure pause of a few weeks, we, of course, also seen it in our swap volume. And we integrated, you know, for example, SwapKit to just have a redundancy, right? As Ologs also said, redundancy is important, especially for a wallet, even if we're, you know, quite 4Chain biased and loving the 4Chain ecosystem and fully supporting the ethos. When something happened like it happened, we need to have some kind of backup. And that's why we integrated SwapKit. But it was funny to see that even though we integrated it, many of our core users, probably you too, didn't really swap that much. But as soon as 4Chain came back up, the volume also returned. So even though the swap routes were there, we didn't see really the same swap volume as before the pause, right? Or before the halt. So it was quite interesting to see that our core user base is really the 4Chain or the 4Chats. And it's something I really love because, or on one hand, really motivates me because I know everyone in the 4Chain community, you know, has the same ethos. We've been through a shit ton and we, you know, we just have this ethos. And I really, you know, love working, let's say, for this kind of user base to try to provide the best wallet experience out there. Of course, we want and we need to creep out of the 4Chain ecosystem to just, you know, get bigger user base to have more users. But all of that, of course, helps the 4Chain ecosystem because most of our swap volume is rooted through 4Chain. And that, of course, helps us all, right? Absolutely. Absolutely, man. I'm so glad you're having this conversation. I'm actually going to put some on screen here because, dude, everything you're saying, I think you're right on target. I think you're right on target. I think you are absolutely set to just capitalize because this just came to my mind. Someone shared this with me. Hopefully you can see that. So this is from a couple days ago. Watch Guru, Binance CEO Richard Tang. Sorry if I said the name last name wrong. 70% of EU users withdraw and went into self-hosted wallets instead of Mika regulated platforms, right? The trend's there. And, you know, what's interesting about this is kind of what you said about, you know, people like, yeah, a lot of people who use your 4Chads, right? A lot of people voltage 4Chads. But I think there also might be an element of trust here as well. Like, I think people are comfortable swapping through 4Chain because they know that it is truly permissionless, right? Like, and decentralized and all the things. Like, for me, like, 4Chain's a comfort zone for me specifically. You know, like, when I swap, if I can, I only want to swap on 4Chain because it's standard the proof of time. It's standard that, you know, it's proved beyond a reasonable doubt that it is permissionless centralized. So everything you just said, man, about, you know, all the new primitives, agentic wallets, you know, and we're going to have a huge inflow of new people coming into, like, learning how to custody their own assets. Like, this is the time where we really need to reach out to people and capture as many of them. So maybe I'll ask you this. Do you have any ideas of how you guys are planning on capturing this new inflow of people who are fleeing basically tyrannical regulation, I should say? Yeah, I mean, there is really something we're currently pondering and planning and, you know, trying to get a good strategy. Because we tried a lot of things over the few years and specifically since end of last year, it's really hard to be effective in marketing for crypto, right? Because you can blow so much money into just general marketing and trying to, you know, acquire users over the, let's say, Web2 way. So it really, like, in my vision for, you know, just general user acquisition going forward is something we actually later on also going to publish our new roadmap for the rest of the year and a quick recap of Q2. But what we really wanted to focus on is, you know, highlighting Vultisic in the different communities and chains we already support. So what we are now going to do going forward is instead of adding more and more chains, because, you know, a lot of chains are just hollow and quiet. That's why I also really love 4chain, right? Because it's organic. It has native users and it's, like, really active and strong community. A lot of the different chains are, you know, either propped up with bots or, you know, just showing volume where there is none, essentially. So we are more going forward, going to be selective of what chains we're adding, but really hardening the chains what we already have, because we still have quite a lot of room into growing each chain we're supporting and different features, different improvements and all of that. And then we want to go into these communities, you know, and push Vultisic more. And let's say, for example, the XRP community, the Tau community and so on. So also, I guess that's a call to all the thought chats who love using Vultisic to always, you know, help us connect to these communities that we get into these communities. Because, as you said, right, I think private keys are essentially, like, heavily toxic and dangerous going forward in a more agentic, you know, world. One for the users itself, because it's hard to custody and really, you know, store correctly. I mean, most of us crypto OGs, we are quite used to storing, you know, 12 or 24 words and, I don't know, a metal plate or whatever. Right. So we are really comfortable with it. But I think if you really want to have a lot of new user inflow, you can't do that. And you see it right already. A lot of the current or new wallets go through the passkey way and just the social login way. And it's, I guess, fine for, let's say, hot wallets and ease of access. But if you really want to store your funds securely in a self-custodial way, right, you can't really trust a big third party or, you know, just a social login. So I personally think still the MPC approach is to see really the correct one going forward, where you have multiple devices with each one having a backup to authenticate and authorize sending funds. And also, of course, in the agentic era, agents or AI can't handle any seed phrases or any private keys. Right. So having this MPC technology is really important for agents to also access crypto correctly, in my point of view. And that's what we are trying to build on, right, to acquire users through organic and like more direct reach out to specific chains and communities. And, of course, leveraging the AI era more. We already have quite a sophisticated SDK, you know, where even like your Hermes or your OpenClaw can directly create a wallet. So I don't know if you have one running somewhere, but essentially what you, you know, you can just tell it, hey, please install Voltisig wallet or, you know, get me a crypto wallet with Voltisig and it will figure it out easily. You don't need to do anything and it just comes back with a wallet and we are hardening that every day at the moment. And the cool thing is, you don't, the Hermes agent of yours, right, doesn't even really need to know to all the crypto kings and bits and pieces because it can be a bit tricky with AI interacting with on-chain and crypto. So we have a way where the AI agent can talk with our AI backend, which also is leveraged by the station wallet. So essentially your agent can ask the agent to, yeah, know how to interact with different protocols, with different crypto and how to do proper on-chain transaction if the agents don't really or not really know it at the moment, right? So that's the way like we are currently setting us up, hardening the wallet as much as possible, then going into the communities. And if the market is right, because I mean, at the moment the interest in crypto is still, I think, at a multi-year low, sadly. So when the time is or comes back, we also, of course, going to crank up the general, let's say, traditional marketing and try some other bits and pieces. But at the moment we are quite in a conserving state where we just try to leverage our organic growth and reach out. So that's why I'm also always quite vocal on the Thorchats and Thorchain community who like the wallet to be vocal about it, share it and help us reach more users. I love it, dude. I love it. It all makes sense to me. Go back to something you said earlier, right, about, you know, private keys being toxic. And I totally agree with that, right? You need to have a much more secure way to secure your funds. It reminds me, you know, back in the early days, before we were born, I'm assuming, you know, I don't know your age, but, you know, 70s, 60s, right? There was no digitization of money yet. You know, you had a bank or you kept your cash at home or, you know, the way you were a liquid was different. And you walked around with cash. You don't have all your cash on you all the time. That'd be insane, right? And so you'd either custody it with a bank, a third party, or you could have a lot of it at home, right? Like, so to me, this is like a return to form where you can have something like Voltisig. That'd be your primary custody of assets where you can do all the stuff. And if you wanted to go spend your money, then maybe that's when you could have a hot wallet. And there's also a hot wallet version, hot wallet version of Voltisig where it's right. It's a single signer, right? Well, sorry if I said that incorrectly. You know what I mean? There's two vaults, but Voltisig is the counterparty. And then you can sign things, but you only need one device, right? So you have your multi-vault Voltisig at home. And then you have this, there's your single signer that you could take with you. And I think that's pretty bulletproof, man. I think that's dynamite. I really do. And with this agentic feature that you're talking about, I mean, this is moving so quick. Like if we threw you, JP, and all the Voltisig boys into a cryo chamber for one year, and we woke you up one year, you'd be so out of the loop. You'd be so far behind because the innovation is so rapid. And so this is the time to be super aggressive and be hyper-focused on staying on par with the developments. And the thing that I really like about Voltisig is I believe you guys have the first principles. Like you really got security, I think, locked down perfectly. I think private keys, as you say, are toxic and they're obsolete when it comes to safety and security, right? So kudos to you guys. I, you know, I love it. I just hope you guys keep with the energy because, you know, you guys are set up to win. I firmly believe that 100%. Yeah, I love it. Really, really grateful to hear that because we really, as you said, right, we try to nail it and make it right. And we try also building in public, right? So that's also one way where you can also see, you know, that production isn't always perfect or always moving as quickly as intended, right? Because there's always stuff coming up or whatever. So, you know, that's why we always just try to be as public, as open as possible to, you know, just showcase and have the ethos, right? Not don't trust, but verify, right? You can just verify everything you're doing and check that we're making it correctly. So that's why also like our Voltisig community is quite vocal and honest with us, right? If something's not working, like they directly can reach out because sometimes you want to use a wallet, something's not working and you don't really know where to get the developers or whatever. So, yeah, that's what we are really, really trying to be. And as you said, right, Voltisig with Voltisig, we really try to be ready for the future. So that's why we have our SecureVault option. We have our, let's say, HotWallet option where essentially, as you said, it's one device of you as a user and the second one is from our Voltis server. Technically, in the future, we probably could also implement the option that you could host your Voltis server yourself, right? And like in the age with AI and VPSs and all of that, it's much easier to set these things up. So then maybe, you know, you can just use your own Voltis server and are not relying on Voltisig at all, which I think now thinking about it, it's actually quite a nice add-on maybe in the future. So, yeah, we just try to be as decentralized as you can be as a wallet, of course. Like recently, we also introduced custom RPCs endpoints. So, you know, you can use your own RPC if you don't trust or broadcasting RPCs. And as you said, with the setup we have, the SecureVault, the FastVaults for, you know, you say your daily spending and the agentic side of things with the SDK and the station wallet. But I think we have a nice setup for the future and being ready for what's coming in the future, especially when it comes to, yeah, maybe attacking self-custody and the whole, you know, sovereignty. Yeah, attack sometimes, I would say, in some parts of the world. But apart from that, you know, we also try to be as accessible and usable for the everyday users. So maybe, yeah, we also currently planning to adding a few more features to have real-life spending. I don't want to drop too much now, but that's also something we're working on at the moment. So, you know, you just have Vultisig as a one-stop shop, so to say, or if you want to, you know, you can take your vault back up and import it into station and you have like the agentic side of things, the secure side of things and everything like quite easily and easy accessible. And yeah, of course, then, you know, your yield with ThorChain and Rujira coming up. So that's our main, I would say, goal going forward to have like a super easy-to-use wallet. And, you know, that's also always my call to everyone listening and using Vultisig. If you don't like something, if something looks complicated in Vultisig or whatever, always just ping me, shoot me a DM or, you know, hop into our Discord and tell us what you don't like. And we always try to improve it as quickly as possible as we can with our resources available. Because I've always seen Vultisig as a, you know, a wallet built with the community. So, you know, you guys reaching out saying, hey, for example, yeah, we still need support for us like stake Rujira, for example, right? Of course, I wasn't like super aware because we are supporting quite a few chains. So we always have stuff to go on and stuff doing somewhere. So if somebody is missing a feature in Vultisig, just ping me and reach out to us. So then we can properly, you know, integrate it, put it on the timeline and get it done, essentially, because I want a wallet who everyone is happy and likes using. Yeah, and I do actually have a question about that. But you know what? I think you guys are on to something because I was just like thinking about what you said, you know, where you have the single signer where Vultisig server is. But if you can give that ability to have their own server, dude, I think that's actually really powerful because I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking if I was like a major like corporation company or some entity, whatever, it doesn't matter. Right. They may not know Vultisig as well as myself. And so they would immediately interpret that as a potential risk and attack factor that would like we're not going to custody severe funds on these simple things. But if they had their own version of that, then they could actually make their own infrastructure within their own entity. Because a lot of businesses, they give their employees credit cards or some payment mechanism, right? Because they have to spend funds on various things. And then that way they can have they can allocate funds to these Vultisig setup and then have the Vultisig as their own Vultisig server. Like, dude, I think you're on to something there. That actually makes a lot of sense. And that that would add a lot more security. If I imagine if I was the entity trying to think of potential risks, you just took a big one away right there. So that that sounds like a really good idea on my initial reaction. I really like that. Yeah, definitely. And that also, you know, is is something I always, you know, try try to to push to with Vultisig, right? To be as as open and modular as as possible. And that's why also we are open source by heart, right? That you if you're like an entity or whatever. And I mean, if you look at it right, like the other solutions for bigger entities, funds or whatever are either, you know, gated MPC technologies who are quite expensive running. So with Vultisig, I think we have a great product in between for daily, you know, let's say normal plebs like us and bigger funds and entities who need a bit more regulation and all of that. And given that we're open source, you know, everyone can verify it and properly integrate or maybe, you know, fork it and push their own version or use their own version of it. So, yeah, that's really what we are trying to achieve with that. One other point I wanted to make, but it just left my brain now. So, yeah, I think that's really something we try to to push for, you know. So, yeah. And if if someone is watching this, you know, recording right now and this interesting and if you know a business that might be interesting, please reach out to them and let them know I'm going to I'm transmitting through you, buddy. I'm going to go ahead and share pals X here. The diving pal. OK, I want to make sure that this gets seen here. If you guys reach out to this lovely individual I'm speaking to and he gets you set up, because, you know, if you are a business or anything like this, like that, just like get ready for this because agentic payments, the safe custody of digital assets like those are key. And the businesses that can take advantage of this infrastructure first and really nail down, I think they're really set up to win. So I love it, dude. I think I think you're on to something, man. I have a question here from the audience because you did mention some feedback about things that people would like. Or don't like. But the question from this person is, how about using Volt token, the Volt token as a universal in-app gas payment? That's the question. Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. What again comes back to the point where we are not really running any specific or centralized accounting system or, you know, server or whatever, because I mean, it would be nice. And it would give the Volt token again more and more utility. And it's also actually something I was already pondering with. But yeah, that's a good point. But of course, with that, we would need some more, let's say, centralized accounting and just some more infrastructure running, which we are currently or never really wanted. But in my point of view, which I personally currently exploring a bit more is getting a bit more into this direction just to give the users a better user experience, a more interesting user experience. Because, you know, of course, you can make a wallet more fun, more interactive, you know, more efficient if you have some higher level of centralization, so to say, with some servers. But of course, my goal always with Voltysic is everything we're doing to make it as modular as possible, right, that you as a user can decide if you want to opt in or you want to use it or not. So you can, you know, have these kind of, let's say, optionality on everything, right? That's why some people, right, don't really, like, that's also one point we were pondering about is before launching Station, if we put this agentic wallet approach into Voltysic itself or create or, you know, use Station for it. Because it would, of course, you know, also make the case why fragment user base and, you know, two wallets to maintain and develop if you could just put everything into the Voltysic core app. But there we, as a team, you know, really came to the conclusion that given AI is still in its infancy and, you know, in the development, you don't really want to have it mixed up with your secure vault or, you know, even in the code base, right? Like some users of us are quite security focused. So we didn't really want to mix up both the AI, let's say, angle and the vision we have with future of wallets and the secure Voltysic and the secure wallet setup in general. So that's why also one thing, you know, when it comes to modularity, we always try to have it as modular as possible, showcased by Station and Voltysic being separate apps when it comes to AI. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that's definitely, I was just thinking because that's an interesting, you know, just pondering a little bit because you're talking about, you know, if you use the Voltysic token, yeah, that's more centralizing. But I'm wondering, pal, if you give the ability for someone to run, to host their own Voltysic server, right, so that they can be their own counterparty, that's, I don't know if you can get any more decentralized than that. And then I wonder if it's actually okay, I don't know about the AI stuff, you know, getting that mixed in, but I wonder then if it's actually okay to centralize a little bit on your end with the Voltysic token, and then have that as an opt-in feature for someone else. I'm not sure exactly how it would work, but if you grant the ability to have their own Voltysic setup, to be their own Voltysic, I don't know how the Voltysic app store comes in play. Maybe we could talk a little about that. Can you break down the Voltysic app store? How does that work? You mean the marketplace, right, essentially? Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. Someone called it the app store, and I just borrowed it. We changed the names, I think, yeah, two times. We first had it app store, but then given the sensitivity of Apple in using this name, we decided to not go with it, essentially. But, yeah, first, going back to the point, you know, with the server and Voltysic, right, it's, of course, everyone can use Voltysic as however they want because it's open source. But, of course, then it's, you know, much, I mean, then you need to maintain your own app, essentially. So that's why I think we didn't see a lot of forking and, let's say, production forks of Voltysic so far, but mainly, you know, just everyone using our app and our apps. Coming back to the app store and market, like we call it, the marketplace, right, the plugins, it is essentially a feature or like a marketplace where you still, as a developer or whatever, can create an automation, which is not really an AI, right? It's like a fixed workflow, like we currently still have two plugins running, which is like a DCA plugin and a payroll plugin. So essentially you can, you know, in a decentralized way, I think the first time ever where you can use a decentralized or like fully self-custodial infrastructure to DCA into all the different chains, right? It always under the hood uses our swap routes, like, of course, bias to ThorChain. And before that, if you wanted to DCA, for example, right, you always needed to either do it on a centralized exchange where then they do it over their infrastructure or have a specific smart contract where then it can be just on one specific chain. And with our plugins, we can finally, you know, have a decentralized and self-custodial DCA, for example, right, and on all different chains we are supporting. And the marketplace itself is open. You know, everyone essentially can create a plugin or an automation, so to say, right, a sell like an on-chain automation, whatever you want. But given, of course, we also don't have, you know, a super huge dev team, we decided to, at the moment, pause the advancements on the marketplace itself and focus on the station wallet, on the agentic side of things. Because, you know, thinking about it, an AI agent with the VultiSig technology can do a lot of these automations already or will be able to do it like a DCA, right? For example, or, you know, managing LP positions automatically or interacting with different DeFi protocols and all of that. An AI agent who has the tools is much more capable than specific plugins. But, of course, these plugins are more restrictive. So, you know, if you really want to have automation, but in a secure way, then the plugin marketplace, the general VultiSig marketplace is probably a bit better fit for it than the station wallet. But the station wallet in general will be much more capable. So, that's like why we're currently focusing more on the, let's say, user-facing station wallet, agentic side of things and automation. And then probably later on, go back to the plugin marketplace and push more there. So, yeah. Okay. Okay. Interesting, for sure. I have a specific question to the marketplace that I want to make sure that I get answered since we're on the topic, right? There's a little bit of math here, so I'm going to try and say it slowly. So, this person wants to know about the fees charged to their clients. So, let's say VultiSig charges 50 basis points, okay? And then the MultiSig marketplace charges 50 basis points. So, that's 100 basis points. And then the ThorChain base fee is 20 basis points, okay? And then, let's say, 70% goes to developers. So, on like a swap with all those, so you have 1.2%, 70%. Does the outside dev get 0.49%? Does that sound right? I'm sorry. I know that's – I'm telling you math over the frigging things. I'm so sorry about that. Yeah. Does that sound right? Yeah, essentially, whatever, you know, like the percentage is, you know, what we set it and whatever, like the 1.2% or the 120 bips. And from whatever, you know, let's say it's a $0.120 swap or whatever, then, you know, it's a 12 cent fee. And from these 12 cents, the developer itself gets 70%. And we, like the VultiSig token or, like the Vult ecosystem takes the 30% of the revenue of the swap fee itself. No, but sorry. It's just based on our VultiSig affiliate, essentially. So, on the 50 bips. Okay. Sounds good. And I'm sorry about that. It was kind of clumsy how I asked it. So, I apologize in advance. I know that wasn't easy. So, okay. One thing you did mention, pal, is that you guys are talking about you are a small team. There's a lot to do. I'm sure your bandwidth is limited. So, a lot of people may be wondering who may have some technical skill. Is VultiSig hiring right now? So, maybe do you want to just speak to that? You guys looking for developers or talent? Well, currently, we're not really hiring in general. We're quite in a, let's say, just turtle and harden and push with the team we have, given the whole market structure and everything going on. So, yeah, we're currently not hiring full-time devs. But, of course, you know, if you're using VultiSig and something, you know, is missing what you really want to, everyone is always welcome to, you know, jump in the Discord, start a discussion, open a PR, and just, yeah, push, you know, whatever they want to have in the wallet. But full-time hires, we're not doing at the moment. Okay. Sounds good. Very good. I'm glad I asked that. Just people curious. Okay. Okay. So, you know, one thing I think you really have talked about here is the agentic feature of future. Excuse me. So, this is something that a lot of people say. Chad Bareford says this a lot. You know, he says, right now, agents, they are growing in sophistication. But, you know, you do not want to give an agent your C phrase, your private C phrase. You do avoid that problem with VultiSig, which is really interesting. But, you know, I think a lot of people may hear this and they're wondering, like, how safe do you, are these AI agents going to be in VultiSig? Are you confident or is there still a lot of work to do? Like, can you give a sense, like, you know, on that front? Yeah, it's a really, really, really great question if you ask me because, you know, I think everyone and with crypto, I think everyone is a bit more AI aware than the general public, I would say. is also aware of agents hallucinating and, you know, just making stuff up and sounding confident and all of that. So, given that and where the agents are in at the moment, I mean, with Fable, everything gets much better, right? And the current frontier models. But still, you have the issue with agents specifically for crypto. It's quite difficult to nail the security side of things, right? Because if one letter or number is hallucinated by the agent and you broadcast it on chain, you just lose your funds, right? So, that's really something you don't want to have. And that's where I think, I personally think we're also quite a bit different to all the different agentic wallets out there so far. We currently really focusing on the, let's say, the guardrails and the security of the station agent itself. That it, you know, you can't, that first of all, the agent, like we will have or we have multiple security layers already in there. One is a general harness and framework who cross-checks what the agent is looking at, proposing and transaction it's creating. And if something already looks off or is weird, it gets blocked, it gets asked or, you know, just a pushback to the user to clarify and verify again. But even if the agent and the whole harness and the guardrails we have in place are confident that the information is correct, the user in, you know, that's a good thing with the Vultisig technology. The agent itself at the moment doesn't have any Vultisig, doesn't have any private keys, so it can't do transaction on-chain. So the station agent itself is actually just an advisor, right, who has the knowledge of different protocols, has the knowledge of, you know, the on-chain transaction, builds the transactions and then presents it to the user in a, you know, in a card style way where you can verify, let's say, if it's just a normal send, for example. Yeah, it's going from my address to the address I specified or sent to the agent, the amount is correct and then you can approve it, authorize it with your password or your biometrics and then it gets broadcasted on-chain but not via the agent, right? So essentially how you can model it in your brain is you have the whole agent side of things which creates the whole transaction but the transaction itself gets broadcasted with our MPC technology and wallet tech, so to say, which doesn't touch the agent itself, right? Yeah, it makes sense, makes sense. Thank you for that. Yeah, I think it's very important, guys, you have to put a lot of thought into keeping this as safe as possible because, yes, as you say, hallucinations, they have very serious consequences. Yeah, actually, to be honest or, you know, just to highlight it, that's also where our main, I think, pain points were over the last weeks and development is really, you know, we didn't, of course, it's, you know, it's easy if you, for example, have an AI agent just for one chain or, you know, just, you know, a general agent, just let it go loose and, you know, it's quite easy to just broadcast and all of that. But given we want to have the agentic wallet, what everyone always thinks of in their brains when they think about interacting on chain with a wallet, you know, with an agent, we have our 37 chains supported in the station app. Everything has their bits and pieces and their, you know, different interactions on chain. So the agent needs to be aware of everything, right? Like has different tools, different skills and all of that. And of course, don't, to not make it too expensive in terms of inference and, you know, just general interaction with the agent. We also don't, can't really, you know, utilize Fable or whatever as a model. So we really need to have a good balance between, you know, a capable model and the guardrails, the harness, which guides the agent properly to, you know, create the correct transactions. And that was something we really, to be honest, you know, struggled over the few weeks at the moment to have the agent and the harness, you know, create the correct transactions and all of that over all the different chains and protocols and everything we're gonna and want to support. So that's why, you know, a lot of blocking happened. That's because that was the first thing we really built out is the guardrails and the security. So, you know, even if the agent proposes some weird stuff, the harness blocks it and then the user, you know, essentially just gets an answer from the agent that he couldn't or can't broadcast it or create it properly. So that was, you know, a bit the hard part, I would say, where we first built out the, let's say, the secure side of things and now the capability of the agent. We're now finally getting there and I hope to get feedback from everyone trying it, you know. So that was a bit of the difficulties, I would say, the last few weeks. But getting nice now and, yeah, gonna be fun, you know, especially specifically integrating Rogera. Coming, we're planning the next two to three weeks to just ask your agent to deposit something in CCL and make you some yield. That will be quite fun. So, yeah, like on the agentic side of things, it will be quite fun and interesting to see how it develops in the whole crypto side of things, to be honest. Absolutely love it. That's actually going to lead me to my next question. But real quick, we are at the top of the hour, guys. I'm going to go ahead and share VolteSIG's X page right here, guys. It is at VolteSIG right here. Definitely check them out. Definitely follow these guys right here, okay? This is an amazing technology. If you're not familiar with ThorChain, I mean, we're literally solving the problems. I say this all the time. ThorChain is the solution. We're thinking of all these solutions and VolteSIG is, I think, the ultimate solution when it comes to the custody of assets. I absolutely love what you guys are doing. It's just so incredible. So you did mention Rogera, pal. So that actually was leading my next question. Like, what are you personally excited about Rogera? Like, what gets you just really pumped up when you think about the app layer on ThorChain? Which, for those who don't know, it's basically a sex-like experience when it comes to all the different financial primitives. But on a DEX, so no KYC, permissionless, decentralized. So what gets you really excited when you think about Rogera and VolteSIG? Yeah, I think for me personally, was always also back in the Kujira days, was really the accessibility of some tools which were gated before by either, you know, technology, what the normal plan didn't really get access to. For example, you know, like the liquidity, the liquidation and engine, for example, what Rogera is building and the whole lending and borrowing is something I also personally just at the moment trying it here a bit, you know, over Rogera just to be a general user and try and give feedback to the guys too, right? Because like I said, we're quite close to the whole Rogera team. So I also try to give feedback where I can and using their products. But yeah, that's really the two things I think exciting me the most is just the general liquidation engine when it comes up. And then, of course, the lending and borrowing because I think I personally, you know, and don't really do perps or a lot of trading just because I'm too busy. But having some, let's say, manageable leverage, you know, through borrowing or whatever is quite nice to have easily accessible with all the different assets, right? And specifically being able to reallocate, repay when you want or switch to the collateral or whatever. That's something super unique to Rogera, where, you know, I mean, lending and borrowing, of course, exists on all the different or many different chains, many different forms and possibilities. But how, you know, the whole package with 4chain and Rogera together is super unique where you can specifically see it right on the lending and borrowing with just switching your collateral, right? Where can you do it to, like, borrow with BTC and then just switch it up to Doge, for example, or AVEX or whatever, right? It's super unique and super awesome to see. And, yeah, I can't wait to really see, you know, now after everything and going forward where 4chain and Rogera are heading. And, you know, that's why I try to position VolteSig as much as possible into you guys' ecosystem with the self-custodia layer and, you know, make it an awesome working engine, you know, all three together. I don't know if you guys tried it, but Rogera, for example, also has a native VolteSig Vault solution on their website. So you can just, you know, with your email, create a VolteSig Vault on Rogera itself, which gives it even more of a sex-like experience, right? And that's something also, like, really nice with a VolteSig SDK. You can just use a fast vault on the website to, you know, access Rogera without even connecting a specific wallet or being reliant on different semi-custodial or whatever solutions, right? Yeah, man. I love it. This is fantastic. It's me real. I'm super excited. I mean, the way you broke it down, I really can't add anything like this. And, you know, a lot of people think, it's not a lot, but some people think, you know, should we just stick to cross-chain swaps? I really think we need to go for everything here. We need to offer all the capabilities of a centralized exchange that we just need to do that in order to really transition the world to an economic doctrine that's far more safe and accessible for anyone in the world. I absolutely love this. I'm so excited. I thought that was great. And you understand, man. And, you know, I think we're saying, you know, a lot like when we're talking about projects, I really think of it as us, not just you or me. Like when it comes to Voltisig, ThorChain, Rujira, I honestly, I just think of this as one big ecosystem at this point. It is us. We are tackling different problems. We're optimizing different things. But this is one monster that's being, and this is the early days. So if you're listening to this, guys, you don't know about these projects. I can't emphasize how revolutionary this is going to be. I mean, real cross-chain, permissionless swaps where, as Powell said, you can do all kinds of cool things like go from BTC to Doge when it comes to liquidations, borrowing, lend. And there's so many permutations here that I could talk about endlessly. It will never get. So I think you're on to something, man. Well said. I do have another question from the audience. Pretty simple one. The question is, Powell, when XMR on Voltisig? I was waiting for that question. No, like, personally, you know, I'm a heavy fan of privacy. And that's why, you know, we also build Voltisig in as private way as possible. We don't do any IP tracking or, you know, any metadata tracking in the app itself in comparison to other wallets. But, yeah, given XMR, I hope I didn't check the last update. I hope it's not too far away on 4chain. But, you know, we also are at the moment pushing and exploring how to integrate it on Voltisig. As you guys know, on 4chain, right, it's not that easy to integrate it. And especially, you know, MPC technology is not that battle tested on cryptographic, you know, protocols like XMR is utilizing. So we actually need to be really thorough in implementing it because, you know, currently there is no MPC, proper MPC implementation with DKLS, what we are using on Voltisig to support XMR. So we are also in talks with our MPC partner who is developing our MPC protocol because I don't know if the community is aware of that, but we are also not like Voltisig. I mean, we have capable developers, right? But the whole MPC cryptographic technology behind this is also not that easy to do. And that's why we don't have that in-house at the moment. We have a really close partner, which we are working with, and we are exploring with them to implement XMR also. But, of course, that's, yeah, resulting in, of course, a lot of development because nobody implemented the solution on DKLS so far. And, of course, we also always need to be a bit aware of the whole regulation side of things a bit, right? Especially being a wallet and being at least to an extent dependent on the publishing and the distribution over the app stores. With, for example, Mica going into place, as you said earlier or mentioned it earlier, we want to be as compliant as possible while not, how you say it the best, while not giving up our core ethers, right? Like, I personally would, I mean, it's always a thing of the whole team's decision, but I would personally prefer to give up the distribution over the app store and keep, you know, fully self-custodial privacy focus when, for example, some regulation or some countries or continents or whatever are pushing in the other direction or making it harder for these apps to be existent. But we also don't want to just rush to, you know, something and then get delisted everywhere and losing our user base. So with the XMR integration, we are currently in at like two difficulties or two harder points to solve is one, the technical implementation is, it's not done and not that easy and cheap to develop. And secondly, we want to, you know, be properly positioned to be still available in all the different regulation and different countries when it comes to that. So for example, that's, we are as a self-custiated wallet, we are Mica compliant, for example, right? Some say it's not needed or whatever, but we actually with our setup, you know, with our as decentralized way of building a wallet are compliant, fully compliant there, which is nice. So, you know, we can be distributed in whole EU still. So, yeah, with XMR, I would love to have it tomorrow, but it probably needs a bit more time. And yeah, I'm personally pushing as hard as possible on our side, but depends a bit on the whole team, on the regulatory side, on the technical implementation. Yeah, it makes sense. Makes sense. And just to add a little bit more here for those who don't like, VolteSig, again, you know, it's a really simple way to say it, but you can think of VolteSig as a very miniaturized version of Thortane. And adding XMR to Thortane is already extremely complicated because they use different cryptography, DKLS and a whole host of other reasons. This is not trivial. It's not trivial, right? And so to add it, so, and then you have the whole regulation side as well. That's a whole can of worms. I totally understand. I don't envy your position on that at all. That's a rough, rough spot to go, to be in. So I'm hoping things work out in the future. And I really appreciate how you decided, like, we would rather stick to the ethos than surrender our principles if push came to shove. So I think that's really awesome, man. So shout out to you. Pal, I want to make sure, are you okay on time? I don't know. I didn't ask you before. I do apologize. I want to make sure that, you know, if you have to get going soon, that I'm respectful of your time as well. Yeah, I mean, I have maybe 10 minutes or something more than I need to. Perfect. Yeah. Well, we can wrap. Okay, so we've asked a lot of questions here. Is there something that we have not covered at all? And it can be anything. I don't care that you would like to talk about. You know, doesn't necessarily have to be about Volte 6, Thor Chamber, whatever you want. Is there anything at all do you think that we've missed or you've added, like, a little spice to, add a little clarity to? I think we talked about quite a bit. I mean, you know, one thing I really always wanted to emphasize, because I know we are in the ThorChain ecosystem since a long time. And some users, you know, maybe tried Volte 6 a while back and didn't try it recently. So I always want to emphasize, guys, please jump on Volte 6 again, try it out and give feedback, especially like, for example, one of the recent features we implemented is having notifications finally. So you don't need to scan, you know, the QR code of your second or third device anymore. You can just start the keygen or start a transaction and you get a notification on your second or third device and can just join easily. I was like, to be honest, and we didn't push that feature, for example, that hard or that quickly, because, for example, myself was not, like, for me, it was always fine to scan a QR code, right? But when we actually tested the feature, I was, like, mind-blowing for myself, too. But they're like, oh, man, like, it's such an improvement, even though, you know, it's just like scanning an image or a QR code or just receiving a notification. And especially if you're, you know, having, that's also something what many people are not aware of with Volte 6. It's super easy to create shared vaults, right? With your family. I, for example, right, I have shared vault with my son. You know, he saves his little Bitcoin and whatever on there and that he can't do any weird things with it. I'm like the second signer with it on the vault. And there you can, you know, set up a family vault, a trust fund or, you know, like for whatever business operations you have with your partners. It's super easy to do. It's, you know, you have a dynamic version of it where you can just kick out different signers and get new ones in with a reshare feature. And given, you know, for example, on Vault-Sig operations, if we do our payroll or whatever or different payments before, you know, you always needed to share a QR code over the whole, like half of the world. And now it's just like an easy notification. So it's like that feature, for example, is super nice to use, which increases the user experience quite a lot on Vault-Sig. And of course, like the different chain hardenings and swap improvements, what we did. And also I always just, you know, try to get the users and the, yeah, especially the users who used Vault-Sig before and maybe stopped it or whatever. Try it again. Give feedback, see what improved because we are constantly pushing updates. One thing I also really want, I'm working on right now is improving communication again and also pushing up or pushing out our updates per, you know, we, I don't know if many know that, but we're almost every week pushing a release on the app. So with that, you know, I also wanted to just going forward, highlight more what changed on each, each new update that you guys know exactly last, for example, last update two days ago on iOS, we pushed also native Solana staking. So, you know, you can just directly bond your rune, stake your Solana in Vault-Sig directly natively. So, yeah, that's something I want to do more going forward. And yeah, just always pushing people to try Vault-Sig again or, you know, just give feedback. OGs out there, listening OGs, return to Vault-Sig if you tried it back in its early iteration, you didn't think it was quite there. I use Vault-Sig all the time. I think it works great and it's only getting better. So return, return, give it a shot. It's such a great wallet, you guys. This team's fantastic. You guys love PAL. We all love PAL. We love all the boys over there. Definitely check it out, guys. It's really changed so much and it just keeps getting better. And I hope if you've listened to this podcast, you understand these guys are ahead of the game and they know what they're doing and they're doing everything they possibly can to make sure that not only Vault-Sig gets better, but it just becomes the best experience in the entire world. Especially because it's tied to an ecosystem, Thorchain, Rujira, which has all the ethos points that we love, that we talk about all the time, guys. Because you guys are on it. Before we wrap, pal, and when we do wrap, please stick around because you have to upload on your site on Riverside, so don't leave right away. But you asked for recommendations. There is a team that I've really come to really like. I jump on spaces with them regularly. Just something to look into. The Kawhi Network. Very cool team. Very cool. They basically have an asset that's like tied to energy consumption. So it's kind of like a flat coin. It's not stable coins. A flat coin that's tied to energy. Way too complex to explain with the short amount of time we have. But they have something called Kawhi and Qi. Qi is the flat coin. They're on to something here. They have a very interesting permutation of proof of work and proof of stake. I really have a good feeling about them. They're a super smart team. So I just want to put that on your radar and just help contribute. It may be an asset to consider adding to the future. It is coming to ThorChain. Not in the near term, but hopefully medium term because we have to, you know, XMR, Zcash, and Tau, and all these others. But it is coming. So something I just want to put on your radar. I think these boys are on to something. And girls. There are girls there too. Yeah, that's awesome. That's great. That's not that common in crypto, to be honest, which should be there more. But, I mean, we are still a super early industry, right? So there's so much growth. And I think that over the last few years, it also was a bit of a purging in our industry, which we're still in, I think. You know, like users-wise and project-wise. And that's why I'm, you know, super grateful to essentially, you know, also stumbled upon ThorChain back in the days. Because, you know, we're, I mean, I know, like, we shouldn't use the word and it's not that fitting. But I find it sometimes fitting. You know, ThorChain is quite a cockroach in crypto. Just, you know, it can get through everything, the whole community, what we are and everything. It's just amazing how everyone comes together when shit hits the fan and we just get through it and stand up again. And it's so awesome to see, even with all the different things we got thrown at over the last few years. And I think with the purge hopefully being over soon and, you know, ThorChain and Rujira and Vulti6 surviving that, we have, I think, a great position for the future. Just given the ethos we are sharing and building upon. So, yeah, like especially also with ThorChain currently, you know, focusing a bit more on the economic side of things, right? Like with the latest ADRs and all of that, I think, especially for integrators, it's really nice to see and makes it more interesting, right? So, yeah, like I'm super hyped and grateful to be in the whole ThorChain ecosystem, building Vulti6 and building it for the users to hopefully getting to a mass adoption of all three protocols or apps. Because I'm quite confident and positive about it. But, yeah, the future will show it. Yeah. And I know we only have a few minutes left, but I'm so glad you said that, you know, ThorChain is a cockroach, but for good reason. And, you know, like you said, you talked about giving your own child, I mean, you said your son, you know, a Vultshare. Like, you know, the motivation is endless because, you know, what a potential future we could have that's not good. And then, you know, you being a father. I mean, what you are building will protect your own child, will protect your friends, your family, everyone you care about. What you're building is their future. And because it's so existential, like the motivation is endless. It's really endless. Right. I mean, you just you can't you can't let it go. You know, you feel deep down inside just how powerful what we are building, how profound in its importance. And like you said, I feel thankful as well. I found this and and it really it's just it's such a joy. And a privilege, honestly, to have these conversations with people like yourself. So, man, thank you so much for for getting some time, hanging out with me and having this conversation. I'm sure let's do it again, man. I'm sure we will. If anything interesting happens, let me know. We'll reschedule and we'll do this again. All right. Yeah, man, we would love to do it more frequently. Funny, funnily, I think actually this was one of the first podcasts I ever did just because of the time and all of the restraints I have. So I'm normally not jumping on too many podcasts, but probably should do it more. It's quite fun and definitely want to want to do it more on 4 Chain. Just yeah, of all the obvious reasons. Heck yeah, man. I love it. OK, guys, so this is going to wrap this podcast. Let's get this outro going. I'm going to let Pal go so he can go back to work and keep building awesome voltage. Guys, for Thor Chain data and insights, please follow at Ray Analytics. That's R. Sorry about that, guys. R-A-Y-N-A-L-Y-T-I-C-S on X. He does written recaps of this podcast. He's going to have his work cut out on this one. And always remember, guys, these views are expressed of the host and guests. Any action taken based on this information is at your own risk. Past performance is not indicative of future results. The Thor Chain community does not endorse or condone illicit activity of any kind. Next week, guys, we're going to have Bazaar Swap. Oh, I'm so sorry. I misspoke there. We're going to have Liquidity Finance, Jan Devman. Jan Devman. So I cannot wait to talk to him. And then the next Saturday, we're going to have Pirate Chain on the show. So look out for that, guys. Super, super fun. Super, super exciting. I can't wait. Thank you again, Pal. I really appreciate it. That's going to wrap this one up, guys. Enjoy the rest of your weekend, everybody. Take care now. Bye-bye. Thanks. See you soon.